Thanks for your suggestion. I will reach out to him as he seems pretty active on a number of forums. Read one of his posts where he was equivocal about switches?
Thanks for your insights. I was persuaded that a great switch - the PhoenixNet - and SOTM ethernet cable would make a great improvement on the K50. Frankly to my ears the K50 does not need these upstream elements. The upside is that I will use the trade in/return of these items to go a long way towards an Oladra, which is very exciting!
I have read on these Antipodes forum Nick has (or had) PhoenixNet with K50, which is why I suggested him. No doubt he has tried other switches too and could speak about switches impacts more broadly than just PhoenixNet.
Thank you, much appreciated
It is an understandable approach, to design a product that does not rely on any other product to achieve its intended objestives, and use the most common connection (in this case RJ45). I suspect if a product was designed based on a fibre input, for example, it would have 2 possibly quite different sound signatures, one with fibre the other with RJ45, which seems to be the case with some DACs for instance which sound different with USB and SPDIF inputs.
This could muddle or complicate a products perception in the market.
However, you canāt unblend paint colors.
With that approach, it must be accepted that RJ45 probably allows noise from ethernet into the product, and so its impact will influence the end resut; AC power certainly does, and fibre SFP modules and wifi circuits probably do also - nothing is perfect, just less imperfect.
So it must be accepted that total neutrality is probably impossible, or mythical.
If noise input is minimised, then it must also e accepted that the end result may differ from what designer intended ā¦ and you might discover other possibilities or hidden treasures.
Hopefully that source is less persuasive to you now. But perhaps it has persuaded you to be not fully satisfied with K50 and so to spend even more. Sorry, I donāt mean to be critical but rather give some words of warning that this addictive hobby can be a slippery slope if you have ample funds, an arm to twist, and time to enjoy it. The quest is endless, and new products keep coming to supersede the very best, exploit human desires and their bank accounts.
We are all somewhere on the slippery slope with different tethers.
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I have a very busy network with 9 POE cameras along with a 24 port switch with meters of ethernet cables all over the house.
I have isolated by Fibre from the switch to a AfterDark Dela (with Farad power supply) with the most expensive clock upgrade.
For me there is a large improvement.
Qobuz to me sounds better streamed, better bass texture and better separation in general terms with the same file from the Oladra.
@NickBacon had it on loan for a while, we agree that it sounds different streaming than local files from the Oladra but I think he prefers the local played files from the Oladra.
Perhaps Nick could chime in as he has a Phoenix as well.
Hi Clive,
Could you clarify what was the large improvement?
What was in place before the Dela?
Was it the fibre isolation, the Dela, or both?
Is your router isolated from the busy switch?
The incoming internet router (DrayTek) is connected to a TP-LINK TL-SG3424P JetStream 24 Port Gigabit L2 Managed PoE Switch with Four Combo SFP Slots.
TL-SG3424P | JetStream 24-Port Gigabit L2 Managed PoE+ Switch with 4 Combo SFP Slots | TP-Link
Then fiber to the Dela then ethernet to Oladra.
Before it was just ethernet into the Oladra.
I also tried a couple of fiber isolators and had a good experience so went ahead and purchased the Dela.
The Oladra does a good job with network isolation but I prefer (as others do) some sort of
network isolation be it cheap fiber media converters or a full blown network isolator with LPS.
I found the with the media converters the bass has less boom and general better separation less harshness.
With the Dela (top clock) Qobuz streaming to me sounds better timed and separation than local files. A friend of mine prefers local files better than streaming with the Qobuzā¦but others I have spoken to have a similar experience to me with a better clocked stream. I guess this could be system dependant and personal preferance.
My best guess is local files are not processed by the Dela (if you play local files Dela is only doing network isolation) vs streaming the Dela may be do some processing with its clock and affecting the sound.
Would I purchase the AfterDark again ?
Well perhaps, I do love the sound just so much detail but not harsh, timing improvement, bass texture, etc with Qobuz but now prefer streaming.
This is with a speaker system.
Recently with a K50 in my headphone system I had a good result by adding a Chord Mscaler to Dave only to find the biggest improvement was when I added the Farad Mains cable to the Farad power supply vs a Supra copper silver cable with silver furutech plugs ā¦! The next day I put in a new Oladra into the headphone system Ok there was an improvement but still smile at the Farad cable.
Personally, I am happy with any sound I get out the Oladra at this level its more personal choice. I just changed a cable and the test tracks (which now bore me) left me listening without any flicking from track to track. I do not have the Dela in the Headphone system only cheap fiber media converters both local and Qobuz sound similar.
Hope that helps.
Correct, the fibre is isolating and the switch facilitates some traffic for roon control.
Here is an explanation of what a better clock does to ethernet data ā¦
If you are feeling brave you could exchange the router with a 10G/SFP+ router which should have much lower jitter and noise. I use Mikrotik CRS 305 because it accepts 12v DC input. Then you could use fibre direct from router to Dela (and possibly use better SFP modules) and also fibre from router to your existing switch to isolate all that from the router.
Interesting, a few possibilities there. Was that with usb input to M Scaler? Was M Scaler upscaling? Was that single or dual output to Dave?
Finally, try removing the disks from the Oladra to remove its affect from the equation.
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Perhaps the 10G/SFP router (switch) would make a difference as less for the Dela to do?
I did upgrade the SFP to Finisar top grade recommended by AfterDark but have not compared them to any others, another rabbit hole.
The Farad Mscaler was fed by BNC from the K50 and then duel BNC into Dave using Wave cables.
What I found interesting was the straight Dave K50 with the Farad mains cable had a similar effect as the change with the cable using the Dave Mscaler.
I find the Dave a little bright on itās own perhaps the cable I used but using the Farad cable there was a profound difference.
If I had to make a recommendation, I would recommend to save the money spent on the AfterDark and Mscaler and two Wave cables and just upgrade to an Oladra with some cheap media converters.
A part exchanged K50 adding the cost of 9.5 k may get you an Oladra ? With change for a single Wave cable BNC ?
I much prefer BNC out of the Olada or K50
I have a Chord Music USB cable for sale if anyone is interested as I have no use for it nowā¦
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The 10G / SFP+ spec is much lower noise and jitter. So it passes on a better signal which will be less detrimental to downstream even a switch with very good clock.
The Dela main switch PCB is not purpose designed for audio. By comparison Waversa SmartHub is, with a very good clock, and is battery powered, and I know someone who replaced a domestic router with Mikrotik CRS 305 sending fibre to EtherRegen then onto Waversa Smarthub and then to Waversa LAN Isolator Reference ā¦ and even with all that network fruit was quite pleased with the improvement especially given the low cost.
So you canāt assume 1 high grade switch can not be improved on.
So when you added M Scaler it was reclocking the reclocked K50 BNC output. I am assuming you had M Scaler also upscaling (up sampling) which could explain the benefit you got. The impact of code can be quite beneficial.
I recently discovered this little trick ā¦ I have Devialet Pro which is natively PCM but accepts DSD64 (DoP). So I have roon converting PCM to DSD64, and Devialet converts that to PCM 192/24. The improvement is not subtle. Perhaps the conversion from one format to another is the key to this. I wonder if something like that is possible with K50 and Oladra - I suppose PCM could be input, converted to DSD by roon, and the player converts DSD to i2s for the reclocker to covert to SPDIF or AES. Anyhow, just a thought.
Power supply, including cables, is critical. Iād say AC Power is the greatest source of noise and impurity and it collects other interference enroute to, and all infiltrates, your audio gear. Hence the array of power cables available. But that is another subject.
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I agree. in my setup, the Oladra still sounded better with an āunoptimisedā home network than say the K50 with āheroicā upstream network enhancements. But a K50 with a very high end audio grade network switch closes the gap considerably. Itās less elegant but has the advantage of allowing one to tune the soundā¦ie want more energetic/effervescent sound, plug K50 directly into the generic network switchā¦want a more effortless/easeful & warmer sound sound, feed the K50 with a high end audiophile switch. YMMV.
Interestingā¦ many (incl Antipodes) suggest a preference (if only slight for AES/EBU). I havenāt tried and AES vs BNC from the same manufacturer (ie same cable but different terminations) so my own preference for AES/EBU will likely be influenced cable quality rather than terminating plugs.
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Iām trying to resist thisā¦
just realised that is a silly thing to say as BNC vs EBU cable design is itself differentā¦ie itās not just different plugs at the end of the same cable.
It would be interesting to know what was in place to be heroic and very high end.
Just to clarify for readers of this thread, it need not be a 2nd high grade switch or isolator/filter thingy, Iād say there are some relatively low cost things that can be done to the network that can provide a lot of sound quality improvement.
@MarkCole
What is the difference between the reclockers on K50 and OLADRA?
Is the code/algorithms different, and if so in what way?
Different clocks?
No difference, except for the power supply implementation differences in the K50 and OLADRA, the K22 also has this same Re-Clocker.
Interesting, thanks. Is there any difference between how the K50 and OLADRA deal with (reduce, shunt, or whatever) ānoiseā that may come into them via the RJ45?
Apologies thread readers for my generalized comments. The specifics areā¦.
Power supplies experimented withā¦ifi ipower v2, X & elite versions, Plixir Elite BDC & Ferrum Hypsos (with DC cables that came in the box).
Power cablesā¦.OEM, PS Audio P3 & P5, GigaWatt Lc-2 & Lc-3 Evo.
Power conditioner for network componentsā¦.PS Audio Dectet.
Network switches ā¦. TP-Link TL-SG1016DE, Netgear GS108 x2, SoTM SNH-10G (standard version) & Innuos PhoenixNet (various cascade combinations/permutations thereof).
Ethernet cablesā¦Generic cat 6 shielded & unshielded types, Audioquest Pearl & Vodka, Antipodes CX-EX connector cable, TQ silver diamond.
Fibreā¦.10Gtek Gigabit single mode FMC with A SFP LX module x2 and OS2 cable single mode duplex in 5m and 10m lengths. ADOT MC03 fibre & accessory kits.
Other gizmosā¦ ifi LAN isilencer and ifi AC purifier.
Having the best possible network switch/power supply (ie PhoenixNet), GigaWatt AC cable and very short Ethernet cable (<1m) just before the K50 yielded the best result in my set up.
What came before the PN appeared to matter less in my set upā¦ā¦relatively speaking. As I prefer simplicity, I āthrew the kitchen sinkā at the step right before the K50 preferring to spend my money in quite a concentrated way rather than across the entire network.
If money were no object, Iād look to test/add a Telegaertner fibre OPT bridge just before the PN.
There is much pleasure to be had from tweaking end to end across the whole network chain and no shortage of options (incl. price wise) if one is that way inclined.
Regardless of which approach is taken, outstanding results can be achieved versus just plugging the music server directly into the modem/router. I wish manufacturers would be more explicit about that.
Hope thatās more helpful.
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