And I think I am now very sensitive to the shape of notes and to the initiation of the note as well as the separation between notes. Once one is sensitive to how notes and instruments can sound without the smearing it is a one way trip and cannot be unheard. I really do try to like the other playback apps but so far they are way behind Squeeze + Squeeze. Like you I really really enjoy my music with Squeeze + Squeeze and unfortunately it just isn’t the case with any of the other apps.
Sadly, it very much is a one way trip. I like how you mentioned the “initiation of the note.” Properly reproducing that is a key to making instruments and voices sound like the real thing. But that’s just part of it. When the entire envelope of ADSR (attack sustain release decay) is done right, the music takes on a realism that can be astonishing and much more engaging. Smearing harms this.
ha ha, like I said. (jocularity). I also use pggb software like Kenny and Nick and use squeeze for it’s playback for many of the same reasons. For streaming its roon and mscaler with nick’s cables. For me the quest for new music outweighs the sonic advantage of squeeze. I tried to like jplay and mpd but it was harsher than roon. roon with squeeze would be the ideal solution but you cannot have lms running at the same time. Fortunately I have both a k30 and ex. k30 server set to lms and roon. K30 player to roon, usb to mscaler, storms to tt2. EX to squeeze, k30 direct stream to it and then usb to tt2. A click of the remote to switch between roon and squeeze. Antipodes provides so many options.
Very true. I’ll be going to see Peter Gabriel in Seattle tomorrow night. Tonight I’ve been familiarizing myself with a few of the new tracks he’ll be playing via Roon/HQP/Qobuz. Like you said, nice to have so many options.
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That’s what ?! … $22k right there!
I wonder if he was comparing a wifi with super good power supply to his XACT?
I suppose you mean a 2nd router? Synergistic Research developed one I gather for this reason.
A couple of little free tweaks I recently discovered that may be worth a try are:
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adjusting headroom management in roon - I have mine at -10dB which seems a lot but sounds great. I was initially tinkering around with one track that obviously ‘smeared’ some frequencies, started adjusting 0.1dB at a time but that got tedious, so I changed my increments to 0.5dB and then 1dB. I am upsampling to 188/192 and 24bit PCM and my Devialets take that to 384
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playing the sound of ocean waves and rain in rainforests with waterfalls or tricking streams - I now only occasionally use the IsoTek enhancer track because it goes a bit too far for my liking but over a few hours my system reaches a more pleasant phase in the journey to sounding less good.
These types of things may be of similar magnitude to the differences in software. The headroom in particular really cleaned up a lot including to my surprise the low frequency definition etc which goes along way towards improving the timing and rhythm of music and perception of sound stage.
What I meant by segmented network was to create a separate VLAN that partitions/isolates the audio network from the rest of my network. This would reduce the traffic that’s bombarding my server - particularly multicast traffic. Easy to set this up on my Unifi network. But to get it to smartly communicate with my primary network would be an endeavor. I would have to open holes in the firewall that just permit certain operations. Like say I wanted to allow on of my Macs on the main network to copy music to my server. I’d have to get a rule that allows only SMB traffic between that one Mac and the server.
Taiko is apparently offering a segmented network with their new router that’s pre configured. I that it won’t allow much flexibility as opening that door would be too much of a support burden.
Just some things to consider. Maybe try and work out if your network is distributing that kind of traffic and any of your hifi (eg. server) receives any. If it is happening, I gather there are ways to disable multicast at the router and once done I presume a properly operating network will only send traffic to the intended IP address. This is why I haven’t been bothered to do what your are thinking, because when I looked into it, it seems to be a red herring in my case. BUT … there might be a tiny difference or improvement that your system reveals that is not understood except when you hear it.
For example, the headroom adjustments, which I can only speculate to be beneficial because the music/sound includes some frequencies that occur at much higher amplitudes than most of the material and for very short periods that get ‘clipped’ if the headroom is inadequate for these. As such there could be less of these if the headroom is adjusted and I suppose none if it is adjusted enough according to what your can hear in a particular system where other distortions are even lower. Quite aside from the possible explanation, it depends what you can hear.
It’s most certainly happening. When a device announces itself on the network as being capable of providing a particular service, it uses multicast to make the announcement. Disabling this at the router would be massively impactful to normal usage. Apps that used to easily be able to discover other devices on your network, suddenly wouldn’t be able to. Better to leave multicast turned on, and then create a separate isolated network of fewer devices that are used for a very limited purpose.
Headroom management is needed to prevent “inter-sample overs” when upscaling. (It’s not needed if upscaling isn’t being performed). HQPlayer desktop will actually show a count of when these occur so that one knows to back off on the gain to leave enough headroom (though the manual recommends leaving the max volume set at -3dB to accommodate this). PGGB does this automatically by first scanning the file to identify the gain that will leave just the right amount of headroom. It looks like Roon does something similar to HQPlayer as you can see here.
PGGB just released an update that introduces an alias control mechanism. It actually improves the sound quality of clipped or highly-aliased tracks through some wizardry that improves reconstruction accuracy. I’ve been reprocessing tracks that were victims of the loudness war and they have each come out sounding more natural. Note that this is more about minimizing the harm that was done during the recording. Headroom management is more about not doing more harm when upscaling.
Certainly, JCAT (Marcin) might face challenges in maintaining complete objectivity, given his involvement in selling products such as JPLAY iOS, servers, switches, and high-quality JCAT power supplies. One can assume that for optimal network SQ , incorporating excellent power supplies AND cables is essential. But discerning listeners can still detect subtle differences or feel that “something has been added” to the network or audio stream.
What’s intriguing is that for achieving the best SQ, Marcin appears to disconnect from the router and the home network, perhaps even refraining from using his own JPLAY app (so far for the Update Time setting feature ;-). This leads to a setup that appears to involve no network connectivity, only a very localized audio stream. What remains are essentially the server itself, the chosen app, and what lies downstream in the audio chain. However, who is willing to explore to such an extent?
Makes me wonder besides Roon, what control applications other readers here prefer and whether they take a similar approach to optimize their audio experience for server player combinations, like closing the tab, pulling the plug or prolonging the Update Time setting as has has been explored on AudiophileStyle? Do users lean towards using browser (Material skin) or apps for Squeeze, or something else? I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts.
I don’t experience this as a problem I notice.
I understand the theory of the what causes clipping, I am not sure the roon signal path lights is a good way to measure it because it might flick on and off too quickly to see, or might not react fast enough. I will do some more listening and watch the light to see if they corresprond.
I have. Now my router is isolated from everything else using fibre except current is connected to the Serve (EX) via excellent wired cable. Also, my Devialet is isolated from the network using wifi and the WAP is dedicated to that function and powered by lithium battery.
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Thought I’d update on the testing I’ve been doing over the last few weeks. Being a curious fellow, I wanted to find out why, with several users singing it’s praises, Squeeze/Squeeze simply didn’t sound good to me. So I methodically checked through all the settings to see if there was anything that might cause a difference. I discovered two settings which after changing completely altered the sound. I’ve been using Squeeze for the last 3 weeks to make sure I wasn’t imagining it, but now I think I’m hooked.
The first setting, which made the biggest difference, was audio leveling. I turned this off. Although levels now vary, the improvement with it off far outweighs having to occasionally use the volume control. The previous harsh edge completely gone and music flows much more naturally and effortlessly. The second change, although I’m not sure it made as much (if any) difference, was changing from cache streams to natural streaming.
With these changes, for me, LMS now takes the number 1 spot and it was fun working it out. Pity I didn’t work out earlier though as I have lifetime Roon.
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Good investigative work! I also have a Roon lifetime license so likewise saddened. I flipped over to Roon/HQP last night and then flipped right back. 
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Welcome to the club comprising those of us with a Lifetime Roon Subscription but prefering to use Squeeze + Squeezelite!!
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I was just checking through my settings to see if I have them as you suggest and although I can find the Cache Streams / Natural Streaming setting I cannot track down the Audio Levelling setting. Can you tell me where this little blighter is hiding?
Took me a while to find it again but Additional Player settings>extra player settings>select audio from the top dropdown>if you scroll down there are a bunch of settings, including volume adjustment/replay gain (actually just above the streaming setting). I turned off anything related to altering volume or gain.
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@flachead many thanks indeed for doing that. It seems I had everything turned off there. I was looking for ‘Audio Levelling’ and I assume that was just your description of those settings rather than the name of the settings.
This is a screen shot in case it is useful for anyone else.
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Thanks @flachead for pointing this out and @NickBacon for simplifying the location for the likes of me.
I am wondering if this will be superseded soon by the MarkC post elsewhere:
“We have a re-worked and updated Squeeze that will enable theme change etc currently in testing.
We have a major software roll-out due, it is “big” in terms of size, and function.
ETA yet to be determined as testing and bug-fix is still in progress.”
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@Artoly I have always thought that it would be really useful if Antipodes could publish a note of their suggested settings for LMS + Squeezelite for best sound quality.
It would be in their interests because then they could be sure that their devices were operating at maximum sound quality. The way it is at the moment someone could be comparing an Antipodes streamer to another make and be completely unaware that the Antipodes device was not running at maximum sound quality.
I had thought about posting a screen shot of all my LMS + Squeezelite settings just for starters and so that other users could comment but I’m sure any Antipodes recommendations would be more useful to us all.
@MarkCole do you have anything you could post or shall I just do screenshots of all my settings pages to get the ball rolling? Or will the impending reworked and updated Squeeze you mentioned fulfil what I am asking?
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Great initiative to share recommended settings for LMS + Squeezelite to optimize sound quality. My aim is not to divert attention from that; we need to begin somewhere. Below, I’ve noted some intriguing observations on how Squeeze compares to Roon 2.0 (!) and other options. Fortunately, to experiment with apps the Antipodes AMS web interface makes switching between apps a breeze.
CHRISTIAAN PUNTER @ hifi-advicewho has extensively reviewed and compared various Antipodes servers offers an intriguing perspective on the possibilities for achieving the best sound quality. For instance, I’ll use the latest combination of K41+K22 as an example, along with the Oladra. "On the combo ‘‘Squeeze compared to Roon is slightly nimbler and airier’’ and ‘‘less spacious and lush than Roon but more expressive and more agile’’ (my understanding from his review). (…)
(…)
While on the subject of Roon, I’m sure regular readers and discerning listeners will be aware of the app’s changing sound quality as it goes through its version iterations. This can be observed with any Music Server that runs Roon, not just Antipodes. But while I feel that Roon’s sound quality took a dive after 1.8, I’m happy to note following several smaller software updates, 2.0 is now sounding really good.
(…)
*So far, I’ve only used Roon which is only one of many apps that can be selected on the K41 and K22. It’s the industry standard and with good reason. But besides Roon, there are also server apps for Squeeze, Minimserver, MiniDLNA, Sonos, Plex, and HQPlayer, and player apps for Squeeze, MPD, HQPlayer, Spotify Connect, and Shairport.
(…)
It’s worth noting that some of the apps offer an alternative sonic perspective to Roon. For instance, Squeeze and MPD offer a lighter, nimbler, slightly more expressive, but also less rich and saturated sound, whereas HQPlayer offers a sonic perspective that lies more or less in between Squeeze and Roon: slightly more articulate but still full-bodied.
(…)
The mconnectHD app looks good and works really well. UPnP may be an ancient format but to my ears, it can still sound really rather good. Using Minimserver on the K41, I first tried it with my resident Aqua LinQ, and this resulted in an interesting mix between the Antipodes’ smooth fullness and the Aqua’s neutral directness. It’s less spacious and lush than Roon but more expressive and more agile.
(…)
But as before, the most synergistic match was obtained when the K41 was streaming to the K22. The latter was not quite as articulate and precise as the Aqua, but it most definitely maximized the Antipodes’ core qualities.
(…)
Finally, I also tried Squeeze between the K41 and K22 using the iPeng remote app on iPad. Admittedly, the iPeng app is showing its age and it’s not as intuitive as mconnectHD but once it is set up, it works flawlessly, and also very quickly. Squeeze sounds very similar to UPnP but ever so slightly nimbler and airier.
(…)
Oladra vs. the K41+K22 combo : I was perplexed to find the combo sounding darker, drier, with remarkably robust bass, but somehow more mechanical. (…) What the Oladra ultimately achieves better than any Antipodes server I reviewed before is very important yet often underestimated, which is that it lets the music be its unadulterated self. It does not superimpose character. And because this is an Antipodes, it remains relaxed and will never sound lean, gray, or analytical.
(…)
Oladra’s performance using Squeeze (server and player) instead of Roon . In this mode, the Oladra sounds leaner, spicier, and arguably more neutral, or less saturated and colorful, depending on your perspective. A more matter-of-fact and direct delivery makes for reduced magic while a spicier transient behavior makes for a more immediate, more Grimm-like delivery, although the Oladra remains fluid and refined. This left me divided. On the one hand, I welcomed the more explicit transient behavior, but on the other, I felt that some of the Oladra’s special qualities were reduced. Ultimately, I would say that the Oladra sounds best when used with Roon.(…)
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