Just on sound quality comparisons of these cables, I am firmly of the way of thinking that any sonic differences will be caused by out of audio band noise generated by the convertor at the receiving end. As such my evaluation of such matters is always guided by the ‘the calmer and smoother sound is the better sound’. Any deviation from this mantra will be suggesting that the ‘more detail’ type of sound cause by intermodulation distortion is better but in my experience this always eventually leads to fatigue.
This has so far resulted in me sidestepping optical links because all the ones I have tried have resulted in a slightly fatiguing sound hence why my current favourite solution is an Innuos PhoenixNET which has the calmest sound.
Having said that I am very interested in trying these latest suggestions for SFP. I have a suspicion that the receiving device will also be playing a significant role in the success of the sound of any SFP so it would be useful to know what each SFP is plugged into when reporting back on how they sound.
One possible factor is increased power consumption in fiber solutions which may result in higher noise levels. It appears that if this translates into audible noise, you or your setup could be more susceptible to it. Did you ever try passive DAC cables?
But it seems to me the sound quality characteristics described by various users in relation to the CISCO align with what you’re seeking in sound quality. I look forward to hearing more about your experiences with it. Would it be that simple?
Out of interest, I understand that the new Network Acoustics switch has recommendations from the manufacturer for users not to use the optical connections with its new network switch “because the conversion between an optical and electrical signal undermines the benefits of this approach, the only exception being very long runs of ethernet. These SFP ports are included for ‘use with future products’. “
Perhaps they have come to to the same conclusion as I have regarding the noise of the conversion process outweighing the theoretical noise blocking of using fiber?
Sorry, I’m not quite sure what you mean by passive DAC cables?
Try Network Accoustics. You can return anything after 30 days if you don’t like it. If you love Squeeze (Audio) like I do, you will be very happy with Network Accoustics. It goes very well with Squeeze Sound. But I have everything. Also the Muon Pro filter after the switch. Because everyone needs to know that switches also generate noise and this noise is then reduced again by the Muon Pro filter. I think you won’t think about fiber optics anymore once you hear the combination from Network Accoustics.
Christian, Thanks. I own the Muon Pro filter and associated cable. I have tried using it between the PhoenixNET and my Oladra but to my ears it either did nothing or possibly even added noise artefacts. Plenty of people swear by the Muon Pro so I will give it another go . . . . . .
In reality I think I have already given up on fiber optics and I am only playing with them whilst I work up some energy for my next large experiment which is going to be building a linear power supply for one of my hi fi devices which has smps in it at the moment. The linear power supply is a big undertaking because of the complexity of the build hence the procrastination.
Hmmm, can a passive filter add noise? Or noise artifacts? With the Muon Pro Filter the sound opens up further. So you can hear more details here and there. The sound seems louder. The room opens. I totally agree with you and am also very sensitive to louder music. I find it more stressful. That’s why I like the offline sound. The softer and quieter or more analogue digital music sounds (which I also like), you might think that something is wrong. This type of music also has to be critically questioned whether it is correct or not. With my Tempus Switch the sound feels louder, more open and clearer. That was also the case back then with PhoenixNet and Aurender. It’s getting louder. Would mean more stressful for our beloved sound properties. But I think we are on the wrong path to this kind of understanding, whether right or wrong. With the tempo everything becomes more organic, with the squeeze sound it becomes even more solid. Michael Jackson was in front of me at times today. Actually a sound that doesn’t appeal to me at all. Or maybe I don’t know what’s good or bad. Squeeze audio is also louder. Louder than Roon. And would you say Squeeze is therefore noisier? Well, that’s all really funny. So many sound characteristics that I have gotten to know so far. I also lost an Ideon Audio 3R Master Time. Sounded way too thin and at times too stressful to me. I then even switched to the rather poorer coaxial digital 75 ohm output from the Aurender N200. Sounds much more organic and freer. And we’re talking about a significantly worse clock than the one built into the Ideon. Who caused more noise or did the Ideon clean up so much that it sounded so perfect that it was annoying? I don’t know, I didn’t like it. So far I haven’t had a quieter sound with all the switches I’ve owned, rather louder. Listen to Melco S100 with ADOT Fiber Kit, you’ll run away, it sounds terrible. And what was advertised about it…
One could purchase a relatively inexpensive solution that would mitigate all noise. An EtherREGEN is $680 US and can be deployed with or without fiber. I choose to use fiber in the final endpoint just before the signal l hits my DAC. So I have a Sonore Optical Module Deluxe (media converter) that sends fiber to my ER with a very short Ethernet cable out of the B side of the ER to my K22 player. From there, out to my Tambaqui DAC. Pure bliss. Zero noise, and one can cut corners by buying an Amazon cheapie TrendNet media converter for $50 that’ll work nearly as well, but would not sound quite as good due to the audio file, grade clock used by Sonore.
I’ve been using a Small Green Computer and just yesterday installed the K41 server and expect the same or better performance. I REALLY like and appreciate the Squeeze interface provided by Antipodes.
For the price, this is a great combo, providing that care is taken when selecting SFPs. But even with this, improvements made far upstream (my router) could still be heard. Crazy hobby.
Yes, it sure is a crazy hobby and an expensive one at the high end of the spectrum.
Thanks to Alex Crespi at Uptone and one of his distributors in Hong Kong (AfterDark) who learned of a specific Finisar SFP transceiver, I went down the rabbit hole and night and installed this transceiver with compatible fiber cable (pic attached) it delivered a REMARKABLE bump in SQ. Stunning in fact. Transceivers about $100 each.
@DesertRat66 I have tried nearly all options including the ones you mention and unfortunately I do not share the ‘no noise’ that you report with those devices. On the other hand what I mean by ‘no noise’ is perhaps better called ‘no noise artefacts’. This sort of noise in itself is not audible but its affect on the sound quality certainly is audible.
The Amazon cheapie media convertors in my experience are not worth buying and have a very negative effect on sound quality.
For me and having tried many many options I am sticking with a good quality switch for sound quality and I have banished all fibre and media convertors from my system.
Fair enough; I suppose no one could blame a guy if he has tried everything but to no avail. Sorry you’ve gone through that. When I purchased my second EtherREGEN for use with my previous server and now the K41, I actually tried it both ways - meaning I tried with only Ethernet and then tried with fiber and all of my friends ( had several over at the time) and I hands down heard a significant improvement as we moved to fiber only.
And BTW, I agree that the cheapie units from Amazon, while doing the job of converting, pale in comparison to a proper audiophile converter like the Sonore boys have developed in the Optical Module Deluxe, I went the “cheap” route for a few years be fore I was convinced to invest in a proper module, and it was a “wow” moment for me. It dramatically improved the SQ I had been getting from my Rendu, and it went from very good to “considerably better.” I will be purchasing another for the K41 along with those FInisar transceivers .
All that said, I totally get that there is more than one way to skin a cat! Good luck, Nick!
@DesertRat66 Bob, it is great to get others experience and feed back. It is how we collectively move forward and improve our systems.
Out of interest when you say that you and your friends heard a significant improvement as you moved to fiber only, can I ask what specifically was the sound characteristic of that improvement?
I ask because I have previously mentioned that I had a manufacturer bring his (expensive) prototype optical bridge for me to try and he was basking in what he thought was an improvement to the sound but to my ears it certainly changed the sound but always for the worse no matter how or where we put his prototype. Unfortunately I am pretty sure he will still go into production with his unit in a cynical venture that relies on the buyers hearing a difference which will be mistaken for improvement.
Good question, Nick. Everyone hears sounds differently just as some people lack a taste for a certain style of wine and prefer another. Some people are color brand while others are too sensitive to certain kinds of light. So it’s tricky business I think when we assign a universal value to anything audio. And yet….at the end of the day all we can invest confidence in to any degree is a consensus of multitudes.
So, as for what my friends and I heard “improved” or better when introducing quality fiber, was more warmth, greater detail, “meatier” mids and cleaner bass, better imaging and sound staging, and yet somehow achieving a bit more transparency at the same time. Everything more musical. I know it must seem like hyperbole but we’ve all experienced much the same.
I have a friend who is a premium cable manufacturer whom I liken to a piano tuner with perfect pitch. He’s got the best ears I know, and he is aligned with what I perceive. I think there is that factor of pairing that is key to this aspect of our hobby. It explains why some people prefer Cisco SFP transceivers and others like me prefer the Finisar transceiver I posted about. For my system it’s been pure magic. It may not be for your system. and maybe your friend’s prototype wasn’t ready for prime time. Who knows?
What I can say is that the media converter itself is CRITICAL, as is the power supply that feeds it. . Comparing an Amazon TrendNet converter for $50 to, say a Sonore Optical Module Deluxe is akin to expecting a 4 cylinder used VW to a new 125k Porsche 911. The converter is very much like the suspension system in a car. Without that great foundation like what’s found inside that Sonore Module one can only get so much benefit. That’s been my experience as I myself started out the “frugal” way, but eventually “saw the light “ and unvested in true audiophile grade converters and switches. The combination of the Sonore Module and Uptone’s EtherREGEN is simply sublime. And yes, those Finisar SFP’s are expensive at $200 a par; but they’re so good (to my ears” I’d pay $500.
For me this debate is ALL about noise and its destructive and distortion inducing characteristics when it gets into the DAC. I have got to be very sensitive to these noise artifacts and their effect on sounds because of my endless experiments and refining of the RF filtering digital cables that I manufacture.
Generally therefore I tend to run a mile from any description that includes ‘better imaging’ or ‘better soundstage’ as often these are mistaken (not in your case I’m sure) for the enhanced emphasis that I notice on percussion or plucked notes. But if nothing else, it has taught me that one must be wary of placing too much trust on what other people say they hear.
The nearest I have got to getting fibre to sound OK is when I powered the final convertor with a ultra low noise Sean Jacobs LPS but even then that was not quite as good as the Innuos PhoenixNET that I use (good being defined as per previously by me as least emphasis on percussion and plucked notes etc).
I have said before that one of my go to test tracks when assessing network devices is Spiral Stair by Mammal Hands. It has a quite complicated percussive background and it is very easy to mistake any emphasis on this as being ‘more detail’ or ‘better imaging’ or ‘better soundstage’ when in reality all that is happening is that this part of the track is coming to the fore due to the subtle distortion induced by the the noise generated from the fiber (and other) circuits. With this track at its best there is a transfixing saxophone taking the main stage with a very subtle background of the percussive instruments and effects. Unfortunately the only way I can probably show you exactly what I mean is to sit you down and listen to my system as I demonstrate what happens to the sound quality of this track when any part of the network (or indeed other digital device) is below par. And as an aside one part of the digital playback highlighted by tracks such as this is the playback software and Roon does not come out of this test very well, hence why I use Squeeze + Squeeze on my Oladra. In the same way I have elected to use the BNC output from the Oladra having tried all the other outputs on the Oladra when playing this track. Interestingly, although in theory the optical output ought to have the least noise it was my least favoured output on the Oladra for sound quality.
Anyway, hey ho. Thanks for humouring me and reporting back on your experiences. I am guessing that your use of the USD in prices means that you are not in the UK but if anyone else on here is in the UK and wants to have coffee with me and listen to some tracks to hear what I mean then please do invite yourself to come over. My Oladra 2 is linked up to an InnuosNET and feeds an Mscaler + Dave (all powered with Sean Jacobs ARC6 LPS) and all connected with WAVE Storm RF filtering digital cables and playing through ATC 150 active speakers.
