Not that strange, many users report a benefit with better cables . This connection also should be beneficial to audio files coming from local storage (NAS). One day when files over Ethernet, whether streaming from internet or from a local NAS, sound equal to local files on SSD, Antipodes users could save on buying expensive high capacity SSDs.
So I am thinking if that quality Ethernet cable makes an important audible difference to you in your setup when using Roon, you could explore more:
Not sure if useful in your setup but one could use fiber for example when NAS and modem and music room are further away from each other and you need to run a long cable BUT fiber very likely sounds different than copper RJ45. The good quality Ethernet cable still can be used in combination with the fiber.
Having a very good switch can make an important audible difference. You could power it with a SMPS power supply but better use a good quality 12V Linear Power Supply. If possible also use that LPS (or a second separate LPS) to power the modem.
In all trials above it is best to exclusively use the Melco switch for audio and install a second switch from the modem/router to connect to the rest of the house, if that was not the case.
Mayby I should not share this here also because it seems to make the audible Ethernet cable differences more difficult to sustain. But I find it fascinating how interconnects and connections have an audible effect on music files. And it applies so much to what we are discussing here.
The (near) future road, to Roon or not to Roon
I just read this today Nov. 17th on whatsbestforum. Emile Bok, the owner of Taiko Audio explains why Roon sound signature will always change and sound different over time and how Taiko server sort of becomes more and more immune to that :
‘‘They (Roon) regularly adjust their code largely to customer feature requests, where inevitably majority rules, especially considering their scale of deployment. They are delivering exactly what they are promising and are doing a fine job at that IMHO. However every code change, even code not even remotely involved with the audio playback “path”, comes with a change in sound signature.’’
‘‘And let me share another voodoo discovery made over time, network cables sound different with different Roon builds, your preferred network cable can “improve the sound” of one Roon build, but “degrade the sound” of another Roon build (using the same OS configuration). P.S. I’m not going to debate any of this, it’s presented as a believe it or not fact, feel free to consider it fiction.’’
So, there you have it:
Roon sounds different with different Roon builds.
Network cables sound different with different Roon builds, for the better or the worse.
If the next day you hear a difference when using Roon without changing anything recently : it’s not your ears .
Emile is now claiming that he will be bringing an end to this variability with his upcoming switch - but only for Extreme owners as there is tight coupling with hardware and software.
A very bold statement so it’ll be interesting to see what his customers report once they get to hear the switch themselves.
I have been following that thread on whatsbestforum for years now. Emile talks frequently about how extreme works on removing noise from Ethernet through both software and hardware. The software part intrigues me especially. Makes me wonder if antipodes is working on something similar.
We have fibre to the node network access, so optic fibre in to the house. Then a standard router then Cat5e wiring throughout the whole house (pulled and terminated myself) to various other switches in different areas. Nothing special here. My playback system is in my office so there is a pro switch there that is 10GBe copper and fibre connections for fast transfer of huge data files between the work computers there.
I tried fibre to the Melco and it sounded worse than a decent copper cable.
Network at the moment is:
Fibre Optic to house <> Router <> long run of Cat5e <> 10GBe pro switch in playback room <> Vertere HB ethernet <> Melco switch with LPS <> Vertere HB ethernet <> Oladra <> playback
Those Vertere HB cables are so good at what they do, but are not inexpensive. Intention is to make a battery power supply for the Melco to see how it goes and now that you’ve mentioned better power for the router perhaps I’ll also make a LPS or battery supply to go there. The 10GBe pro switch is 240VAC input so I would have to pull it apart and mess with its internal SMPS…not sure if I can be bothered with that job at the risk of bricking an expensive and perfectly useful switch.
The question is not if it will happen, but more when.
After every modfication the Taiko Extreme becomes more ‘‘immune’’ and eventually will produce the same sound in any setup with any music file. If Roons’ sound signature was not changing continuously Taiko could tune the Taiko Extreme to make it sound exactly the same with and without Roon (read WBF).
Today for Extreme it does not seem to matter what SSD you use (currently NVMe SSD over PCIe). Antipodes perfectioned SSD over SATA and a specific sound signature.
Reading your set-up (thanks!) I can confirm right away that music files from SSD (both Samsung) sound the best in your setup. No need to compare to streaming from NAS I would think.
The 10GBe pro switch in playback room probably has the NAS and the work computers connected and also the Melco with the Vertere HB ethernet cable? You also mention work computers do huge data files processing. You use both 100 and/or 1000MB RJ-45 on Melco?
I’ll keep this short, I am going off topic (SSD recommendation thread).
It seems the music system is at the end of a long line. Streaming will meet many hurdles and is on the same switch and cables as the work setup.
Ideally:
the Melco (S100?) would be connected directly to the router
possibly with a second run of its own cable (see below)
Cat5e is maybe not enough for huge data files processing in office (if this cable needs to be shared for music streaming)
the fibre in the Melco has the potential of less jitter (worth retrying)
You should verify with the manufacturer if the Vertere HB ethernet cable (beautiful cable!) has the outer ground shield open at one end (not attached to metal plug). Usually this type of metal plugs are attached to the outer shield creating a ground loop. You do not want that with the Melco! If there is an audible ground problem any Category-6a UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) cabling will possibly beat the Vertere in this setup with the Melco. The Vertere seems very a well insulated cable so ideally at least in the last stretch where it’s most beneficial one Vertere Ethernet will stay connected to the Oladra.
YMMV but better setup is :
Fibre Optic to house <> Router <> long run of Cat6 UTP /fibre <> Melco switch with LPS <> short Cat6 UTP type but preferebly the Vertere <> Oladra <> playback
But… for around that same price I could get a single PM983 drive with 7.68 TB and use that to replace two 860 EVO drives at 3.84 TB each. The improvement should be larger than a one for one swap. I’ll be tempted to try that at some point.
Have only recently started ripping my cd’s onto my K40 with a 870 EVO. Noting what has been said in this thread I decided to bite the bullet and get a PM893 as there isnt a lot to re do. The difference in SQ is night and day in my opinion. The K40 could sound a little too polite at times with the vocals being a bit reticent, almost as if the singer was 6 feet behind the speakers now with the PM893 the system sparkles much more dynamically.
Would like somone to explain how there is so much difference between SSD’s
What device is serving as the Player in your setup? I can’t ever say that vocals have sounded reticent or polite in any way with either the K30 or K50 in my system (both using the same 860 EVO drives). I guess it’s all relative though as until I hear the PM893, no way I can know what I might be missing out on. Interesting that you consider it a “night and day” difference.
Its a DCS network bridge, Phoenix Net and TT2 with Network Acoustics Muon cabling. The vocals are much more defined, there is improved diction in backing vocalists and you can hear the seperation. Nick mentioned that percussion is more detailed and I can concur with that, I listen to a bit of EDM and I am hearing little cymbals and percussion I havent heard before on my favourite tracks.
The K40 also feeds another player/dac on the same network, albeit not of the same quality as its a secondary system, and there are big improvements on that as well.
Wonderful setup and I appreciate you explaining differences you hear. I guess with folks spending thousands on switching, a little over grand on a drive isn’t too far
out of line.
Forgot to mention that bass has improved as well, it is more defined and crisper. “vapour trails” go on for longer as well.
I suppose its all relative at the end of the day. I have just recently replaced the power cables along with SR fuses on the power amps with a combined cost of nearly 10 times that of the SSD. IMO the SSD has made a bigger improvement than the cables . I am not buying anymore fuses.
One aspect that bothers me is What if a better one comes out in a few years time ? I suppose that is all part and parcel of this “hobby”
I finally went to look at what I paid for the 860 EVOs and it made the PM983’s price not look as bad.
It’s not a matter of if as there will be another fuse color. I have Blue fuses in my K30 that were freed up after upgrading the fuses in my amp. I consider myself done as far as that goes. I don’t think they moved the needle enough in my K30 to justify doing anything else. That’s not the case though with my DAC and amp.
Very likely that SSD is already out there but it is impossible to test all of them. Antipodes recommended the PM983 after comparing with 2 other Samsung SSD types. Apparently no other brand was listened to in that test. Neither the SLC, pSLC, or other MLC types SSD. (PM983 is TLC type memory).
So unless you start comparing yourself you have to go with a recommendation that has a specific sound character. Does it sound more warm, more analog, more digital, less natural, more vibrant, has it a wide enough sound stage, transparent or still a veil, holographic or not at all or just less? Your ears will tell.
Changing SSD can reveal or hide more of the system’s sound signature and of course should be used to the users advantage. Knowing this I would want to make sure for playing music files from local storage I do not use a mediocre or bad SSD compared to the PM983 ‘‘standard’’.
To protect you from the wrong choice it would be great to have a chart with sound signatures of SSD’s so you can choose what sounds best to your ears and in your setup as I wrote on Sep 2 in this thread. I consider it an art to write about sound and it is rare to find good authors or good descriptions of audible qualities and how devices (SSD’s in this case) sound. SSD recommendation for new K models - #35 by rkalmeijer.
Hopefully in the near future there will be consensus towards certain types and brands of SSD to make choises easier and allow you to get more performance out of your device and ‘tune’ the sound signature to your liking. Forums like these are a great place to share these experiences.
We also recommend for reliability, we use no other brand of SSD in our devices other than Samsung, none sound as good or perform as reliably, in our opinion of course.
The other reason for the Samsung SSD PM983 is that it supports Power Loss Protection (PLP). PLP solution can guarantee that data issued by the host system are written to the storage media without any loss in the event of sudden power off or sudden power failure.
Hello. I’m in the UK and will be the proud owner of a K22 in a couple of weeks time. Regarding SSD options, is this the Samsung PM983 which is being discussed?
I ask because a previous post mentioned that this SSD is a TLC type, but the Specs tab for the one above refers to MLC.
I do not have a tech background and so all this is new to me.
Hi there. The Samsung 2.5" SATA drive is a PM893 seen here:
It has TLC (triple level cell) memory. I would not be concerned about differences between MLC or TLC for your (our) Antipodes application. PM893’s sonics in my K40 provided for a richer and fuller sound in comparison to the less expensive consumer-grade SSD I had used originally. Good luck!!
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